Otha Campaign Session Detail 3.5 Rules Online
Internal Links:
External Links: Paizo Campaign Archive: Sons Of The Vast


Wednesday, May 17, 2006

Discussion Thread: Good vs. Evil And Prisoners?

QUESTION: What should player characters do -- especially good-aligned characters -- with captured prisoners? Specifically, is it okay to kill evil prisoners?
Bloggers Note: As the DM, I must remain neutral on this topic. I believe that players are the experts on their characters.

Interesting Reading
From a Monte Cook forum:
Some say that killing captured prisoners is fine for good Player Characters (PCs), so long as the captured foes are unambiguously guilty of great evil (human sacrifice, torture, etc). Rory Weston said:
"These guys are guards for evil priests who capture innocent people for bloody sacrifices & are buddy buddy with all sorts of vile monsters whose alignment entries in the MM read 'always evil.' No neutral or good guys would hang with these cultists and claim 'just doin' my job' for more than about a day before finding their alignment shifting to evil. I also view the guards as being members of the cult -- they are not priests, but I expect they take part in the ceremonies and rites ... My players have no compunction about executing these bas*ards after they have questioned them -- and frankly I as DM would be more likely to look at alignment if they let one of these "monsters" go free after questioning."
On an Opposing View:
"Good characters are bound to accept surrender and treat prisoners properly. Torture is out. Summary execution is out. Cutting down a surrendering foe is out. Those are evil acts. That said, a good character doesn't need to be stupid about prisoners. Bind, gag, and blindfold them, just don't torture them." But he somewhat dodges the question of what you can or can't do to enemies who do not surrender, but who you capture alive. Is it evil to kill a helpless enemy -- even an evil one?
From a WOTC message board:
...one poster asks if it is okay to kill a captured enemy in order to inspire his captured friend to talk. The information sought would save innocent people, so his intent was good, said some in the discussion. Other said that killing one person just to intimidate a second person is evil no matter what the motive. So, is it good if your intent is good? Does intent matter?
From An Official Online DnD DM:
"The Players Handbook says "Good" protects innocent life. Good does things for others. Says nothing about the killing of evil people. Therefore, if players have a helpless, helpful prisoner who is bad, it is fine to kill him after interrogation. It is fine to inflict pain to get that interrogation. No evil in it. The worst dilemma is how to get the blood off your armor." If you inflict pain on the prisoner after you got what you want out of him? That's evil. If you interrogate and kill a shopkeeper who doesn't want to tell you some piece of info? That's evil.
From the Sage Advice column in Dragon Magazine (#341, p82):
Is a coup de grace attack an evil act? (i.e., can a paladin make such an attack without falling from grace?
"The coup de grace is simply a kind of attack and is neither inherently good nor inherently evil. In some cases, it's the best option against a foe (such as an unconscious but regenerating troll). If attacking a particular character would be considered an evil attack -- such as stabbing an innocent merchant in the middle of his shop -- delivering a coup de grace would be just as evil. Of course, if the paladin has already promised to face her foe in nonlethal combat, delivering a coup de grace would almost certainly violate her code of conduct. "
From the Book of Exalted Deeds (page 28):
"Prisoners must be treated with a certain amount of respect. Torturing prisoners is out of the question, of course, and generally knocking prisoners unconscious every time they wake up amounts to cruelty ... There is one good and important reason to take prisoners rather than kill every enemy: live prisoners give better information than dead ones ... While evil characters readily resort to torture to extract information from prisoners, good characters simply can't, and even using the threat of torture ... is morally questionable. "
The book goes on to suggest compulsion spells and intimidate skill: "This intimidation need not include threats of physical harm, since displays of holy power or strong moral exhortation can serve the same purpose." The book suggests using Diplomacy long term to convert creatures to Good. Even the definition of alignments may not specifically answer the question of what you can and can't do to a prisoner.
From the D&D Core Rules:
Good characters and creatures protect innocent life ... "Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings.
Possible Conclusions? (according to an anonymous author):
It is possible to establish first, that captured prisoners are not innocents. If so, letting these villains go may lead to the villains hurting innocents. It may be that killing prisoners, even in cold blood, so to speak, is what you have to do to protect the innocent people that villains would tend to target if they are not slain. But the respect for life and dignity rule then kicks in. Torture is prohibited because it is disrespectful of life and dignity. On the other hand, I think (says this author) threats and intimidation, not to mention charm spells and such, are not an affront to respect and dignity, especially not when dealing with criminals and enemies.
To conclude, (says the author of this article (not your DM) ) you can certainly extract info and then kill prisoners, but kill them cleanly.
T H O U G H T S ?
Click the comments button below:

13 Comments:

Blogger Pavel the Monk said...

The last Lawful Good character I played (a cleric) took his alignment clues from the Book of Exaulted Deeds and therefore would not tolerate torture or inflicting pain on any sentient creature, regardless of their alignment. That particular book provided alternatives in the form of ‘Ravages’ and ‘Afflictions’. These were a series of poisons, curses and spells that ONLY dealt damage to a creature when it committed an evil act. This way, you could curse a creature and inform it that any additional evil on it’s part would result in pain (or worse). A warning. Like a cop yelling ‘freeze’. If the creature ceased it’s evil ways- nothing happens, if not- the curse is triggered and delivers the payload.

While this might be a way around the dilemma in game terms, it’s a bit limiting as an overall solution. Poisons, curses and spells can all be countered and they don’t provide the ‘closure’ that a severed head puts on a situation.

I believe that there should be separation in the actions of good and evil beings. The challenge of remaining good and still being able to triumph over evil characters who have no such restriction is one of the more satisfying parts of the game, to me.

My take (and Pavel’s change of heart while speaking with Animosus) is designed to leave the character-based conflict in the game, but not make the game unpleasant for the other players. It is based on the following three ideas:

One – To Each His Own. While I personally don’t believe in torture, I’m not your God so you do what you please. I won’t intervene unless I’ve sworn to protect the person you’re about to harm (which is not likely if they’re not ‘innocent’.)

Two – Every Situation is Different. The line between good and evil will move, based on the situation. Slaughter is behavior that is perfectly acceptable on the battlefield, but won’t be tolerated in room full of unarmed innocents. Same behavior. Different situations. Corim makes the ‘situational’ point quite nicely in his last post- In this situation, our prisoner is just really evil and deserves to die. Next time? Who knows. Maybe the next one is just a lackey, so we spank him and send him home to mommy.

Three – Bring the Toolbox. No one solution is gonna work in all cases. I think that Kelestri had the right idea for the last interrogation- we start at the ‘good’ side and move closer to that ‘line’ until we either accomplish what we need or get to the point where no player is willing to step any further. There isn’t any reason that we can’t use everything at our disposal: compulsion spells (Leif might have a few, or Animosus can cast them from a scroll with a low-DC check), flaunting our Dieties power, intimidation, paying (an informant), torture (for those who are willing to go there), ravages, afflictions, and even death. We all do what we can sleep with and settle up with our individual Gods later.

That’s my two cents.

7:29 PM, May 17, 2006  
Blogger Animosus Constans said...

I as a paladin of Justice and Law first and all things good and honest somewhat second can make the distinction between executing a even torturing a truly evil enemy and the evil act of doing the same because it makes things go faster, easier, and better for us. The evil enemy would likely do the same to us if the tables were turned. Also I have an obligation to be judge jury and if needed executioner whenever needed and the local law does not exist. Last I saw the constable wasn’t patrolling the town of Manyoaks. I also balance the concept of letting the captured murderer go free if they serve the bigger goal of stopping an army of evil the Vast hasn’t seen in several generations. I’ll be satisfied to stop the army every time. Praise Tyr for his clarity of teachings! HAZAH!

8:48 PM, May 17, 2006  
Blogger The Guru said...

That is an excellent set of comments Pavel.
The fact remains, however, that not all of us are "good".
We, and I mean me and those that agree with me, are more concerned with the welfare and survival of INNOCENT civilians than nasty priests of Bane and their allies and lackeys. These foul people are worse than orcs, they chose to be this way.
Those of you who call themselves "GOOD" are the ones with the moral dilemma. It is not my place to tell you how to live your lives.
If we hold to our own values we should all be able to look ourselves in eye after this is all over.

8:55 PM, May 17, 2006  
Blogger The Dungeon Master said...

Well... this discussion is going just peachy!

5:49 PM, May 18, 2006  
Blogger Animosus Constans said...

MARK SAYS:

I have a character that is very charismatic. I unfortunately am less charismatic that my character. I tend to talk about things in a different manor that my character. I ramble easily, yet you may notice that Animosus speaks when he has something to say that is relevant. Animosus has certainly pushed the limits of the concept of a lawful good paladin, but he has done nothing in game that would displease Tyr. I on the other hand have discussed things that would make Tyr bitch slap a paladin. I want to play a character that is in line with the rules of conduct, but I do not want a sterile character that is a cookie cutter paladin. Animosus’ orc incident was based on getting very angry and he walked away after because of that anger. He probably was even a little embarrassed that he lost it. I did not express this fact well. I did not want Animosus to participate in the questioning of the Ur-priest and when he was asked to talk to him I assumed that it was because there was no success in the groups attempts. That helped me decide to make the deal. Animosus did not know what was done to the Ur-priest and was not about to repeat his anger moment. After all he had time to cool off after this battle. I chose not to use above board knowledge to make my decisions and in fact was talking to Paul to help reinforce that. I talked to Chip and he felt I did not cross any lines. Yet if he were DM he would want to warn me. I feel in this case that I would be boxed in more and not as satisfied to play any lawful good characters. Chip and I have always disagreed on the alignment thing. We have a long history to prove it. I think things are Okay for now as I am experimenting with the limits of my character. I do not intend on crossing over to the dark side.

7:10 AM, May 19, 2006  
Blogger The Dungeon Master said...

Just to reinforce this... there will be no bitch slapping of any kind. =)

12:23 PM, May 19, 2006  
Blogger Animosus Constans said...

Mark said:

Tom G,

While you want to stay neutral on this issue, you do not have that luxury. At some point you will need to play Tyr and encourage my actions by maintaining my spells and powers or “bitch-slapping” me into atonement. I hope I continue to earn the former.

12:54 PM, May 19, 2006  
Blogger Pavel the Monk said...

Can I be a character witness at the Animosus atonement trial?

"Mr. Tyr, your honor- I've known this man all my life (well, okay- four hours) and he's always been a good person (well, except for that orc-asphyxiation thing) and his word is above reproach (unless he promises you a potion), uh...you know, I think I'll just sit back down now...

8-)

Just pulling your chain, Mark. lol.

1:42 PM, May 19, 2006  
Blogger The Guru said...

Pavel, you made laugh, a lot. Very ,very funny.
I see now this is truly a discussion on the codes and ethics of paladins.
Although we must play our characters as we see fit, sometimes it is helpful to get a little perspective.
John(Corim's little inner voice)

4:23 PM, May 19, 2006  
Blogger The Dungeon Master said...

Hey this is a family show, not Jerry Springer. In-game, yes, the Gods are watching. Yes, that is always the DM's responsibility. For purposes of this discussion - I am Switzerland, as neutral as a baby Druid's bottom. Besides, an oracle once told me, reward your player characters in public and reproach them in private.

10:30 PM, May 19, 2006  
Blogger Slyl said...

(note:..Slyl doesnt have an alignment in truth...he is everchanging as he grows up and the world around him changes and effects him so i will not be using slyl as a reference also..i think i am noticing that im playing Slyl as if he is a chaotic neutral character...hehe)

Personaly i see minimal tourture ie. phisical punishment that is not truely intended to kill but to goad information as not having a factor on the good alignment...if done by an evil char it would effect it slightly...

once you cross that line where you are no longer just harming but actually "mutilating or emotionaly scaring" a prisoner you are going towards evil...but if done on an evil creature that had done horrible deads and it is known..then its not much of a push...i dont remember if there is a point scale..but i would have to say an act of such on an EVIL character would only be 2-3% towards neutrality if you are good and 1-2% to evil if you are neutral...

the only thing i have a problem as slyl on anyone but me doing the tourture is that i have been through tourture...and know what to do...i just need somone to ask the questions.

3:08 AM, May 20, 2006  
Blogger Animosus Constans said...

If I go to the dark side I'm taking you all with me. lol

11:23 AM, May 21, 2006  
Blogger Slyl said...

...your not taking me down..ill have to kill you first..hehe

6:12 AM, May 23, 2006  

Post a Comment

<< Home